Let's Talk About Pot - Part II

Dave's Story - Why He Quit Cannabis and Helps Others Do the Same

In last week’s Substack post, I talked with Sarah about her choice to quit alcohol while continuing to use marijuana in a way that works for her health and lifestyle.

Since I’ve seen firsthand how alcohol abuse (specifically) leads to death, I think if you can find something that works for you that is not as dangerous as alcohol, then kudos.

But through the Twelve Steps of Alcoholics Anonymous, I’ve learned that—for me, emphasizing that this is my experience—alcohol was not my problem; it was my solution. Throughout my life, I’ve used other things as my solution. When I was a teenager, before I fully committed to alcohol, I binged and purged food, secretly eating pints of Ben & Jerry’s Chocolate Fudge Brownie and then sticking my finger down my throat. And even now, with 14 years sober, I can watch TV like an addict—hitting “next episode” even when I really don’t want to, unable to stop, and embarrassed and ashamed to have secretly finished shows behind my husband’s back.

So, I’m glad to have this Part II conversation as a counterpoint to the “California Sober” discussion.

Meet Dave Bushnell, founder of Leaves, a community dedicated to helping people quit cannabis use.

Let's dive into my conversation with Dave...

LIZ: Welcome to my Substack, Dave! Thank you for agreeing to talk with me today. Let's start with your story. What led you to get sober 26 years ago?

DAVE: So happy to be here, Liz, thank you! I worked in advertising and digital agencies for my career, and I was also a musician in New York, and drugs were just part of the culture. But over time, my use increased and changed. At first, it was for fun with friends, then it was with friends, but I was eager to get home and use by myself, and then it was just full-on isolation to use, mainly because none of my friends wanted to use as often or as much as I did.

I was using alcohol, weed, opiates, and psychedelics, and what started out as some small steps backward eventually upended my life in the same way Hemingway talked about going broke, “Gradually, then suddenly.” I checked myself into rehab after 10 years of promising myself every day that I would quit tomorrow.

That was 26 years ago, and so much of what I learned there has gone into Leaves.

***

LIZ: What inspired you to start the subreddit Leaves, which is, in your own words is, “A support community to help stop smoking cannabis, marijuana, pot, weed, edibles, or getting high.”

Actually, let’s start with: What’s a “subreddit?” And then the other question. :-)

DAVE: I’m always happy to evangelize subreddits – reddit provided us with a platform we needed to build and manage a very large community organized around a single topic (a subreddit), that would have cost us thousands of dollars to build ourselves.

Oddly, it feels like it was more the advertising executive side of my brain that was the origin of the idea. I knew that the number of people who would have a problem with a drug is always a subset of the number of people using it, and with legalization picking up speed and many more people accepting smoking as not being taboo, I knew that the number of people who needed the help would continue to increase.

That cannabis could be addictive wasn’t really part of the discussion then, but of all the drugs I used, it was weed that posed the biggest risk of relapse for me, so I knew the pull it could have.

I was a reddit user then and just started this little interest group (a subreddit) with a post on the big subreddit for weed smokers:

Hi all --

I am in favor of pot legalization and I believe that anyone who wants to smoke should be welcome to.

But as a recovering addict with twelve years clean I also know that there are some people who want to stop and are finding it difficult.

I'm hoping that r/leaves can support discussions helpful to them. I'm not an evangelical non-user, so people looking to advocate that or oppose that will find themselves bored. I only want to provide a place for people who have made the decision that they want to quit, or are trying to sort through that decision for themselves.

The name of the subreddit is, yes, a pun, but I hope a bit metaphor-y too: leaves being something that make the tree stronger, which I think a candid discussion will do, and ultimately something that can fall off once the time is right without hurting the tree itself.

I've never moderated a subreddit before, so I'll do my best and I hope it's useful.

Thanks!

Then I sat and waited. Within an hour, someone posted their story and asked for help. Since then, the group has grown to 360,000 users on Reddit, 13,000 users signed up for twice-daily live chat meetings on Discord, twenty volunteers that keep things running, and a home base at http://leaves.community.

***

LIZ: In AA, our primary purpose is to stay sober and help others. We believe service or helping each other is the key to staying sober. Have you had the same experience with your subreddit community?

DAVE: The idea of people talking about their own experience and others taking what they choose from that experience is our entire focus. I think that people helping people in an environment of kindness and support is probably one of the most powerful tools for personal change we have.

Of all the things in rehab that helped me the most, it was the group sessions that I looked forward to the most and I got the most out of. I was always amazed that people from so many different backgrounds, people I might have moved away from if I saw them on the subway, could say things that were so meaningful and helpful to me. It broadened my openness to others, and that experience is at the center of Leaves.

We aren’t programmatic like AA or MA; we don’t have steps or things to work through, but we do focus on the group and mutual support as our method. When people take the time to put their thoughts and feelings into words, and others find something in those words that are meaningful to them, it’s an almost magical transformation.

***

LIZ: I know what you mean by magical transformation. I’ve witnessed that myself.

When people hear the term "addiction," they often think primarily of hard drugs. Could you share your personal experience with marijuana addiction and why you felt there needed to be dedicated support for it?

DAVE: Well, defining what constitutes a “hard” drug is a little complicated, isn’t it? There are a probably as many casual definitions of addiction as there are conversations about it. Still, we use what is generally considered the medical definition: “Continued use despite negative consequences.” Basically, if it's causing negative effects and you want to quit, but you can't bring yourself to quit, then you need to think hard about whether you should be using it at all.

The good part of that definition is that you get to make your own decisions about what negative consequences, if any, are coming out of your use. The bad part is that you really need to be honest, very honest, with yourself.

For me, after about a year of smoking, I decided that I’d had enough. I’d learned everything I’d set out to learn, and it was time to move on. Ultimately, though, it was nine more years before I was able to make that happen, even as the negative financial, social, and mental health consequences piled up and even as I made that decision to quit again and again.

***

LIZ: What would you say to people who say you can’t be addicted to pot?

DAVE: I think that when I started the group, I might have said, “Well, we don’t really know, but we do know that some people need help, so if they ask for it, then we’ll provide it.”

Now, though, after 14 years, there has been extensive empirical research on Cannabis Use Disorder, I take some credit for our group driving an active discussion on cannabis addiction. We have 360,000 people who chose to come to us on their own and say that not only is it time to stop, but they need help doing it.

So my message now is that, yes, cannabis is empirically and anecdotally addictive, apparently at similar rates to other substances like alcohol, but that’s okay. As long as we accept that, realize that it’s a medical reality rather than an attack on a community, and get people who need help the help they need, then it’s all going to work out fine.

***

LIZ: In your years of supporting people who want to quit cannabis, what are the most common challenges you've seen people face?

DAVE: I think people are probably most surprised by the physical withdrawals. Nausea and other significant digestive problems, headaches, elevated heart rate, uncontrolled sweating and hot flashes, and vivid nightmares. But I think it’s the emotional dependency that can be the biggest challenge.

For regular users, weed is particularly effective at wrapping itself around every part of your life—your friend group, your hobbies, the food you eat, how you process emotions and relationships, and removing it can upend many more things than just not getting high. It changes what you choose to do with your day, it changes how you enjoy movies and how you play video games, and when you stop, the world can become a very gray place.

That’s why communities can be so effective, especially live meetings like our Discord meetings. In the short term it doesn’t feel like you got rid of a drug, it can feel like you got rid of everything you enjoy, and getting that reassurance from other users that it’s temporary and there are ways to start enjoying things again is invaluable.

From a more experienced quitter to someone who was realizing that they didn’t enjoy watching movies anymore: “Remember that you didn’t get high to make the movie better, you watched the movie to make the high better.” That kind of wisdom can change how people experience recovery.

***

LIZ: A big part of AA is the “anonymous” part. It’s right there in the name! I choose to be open about my disease of alcoholism to normalize it. Do you have any reservations about being so open about your addiction?

DAVE: I was always open about my addiction and recovery in my real life. I wasn’t at first, but then I decided that while I was helping myself, keeping it secret wasn’t helping anyone else.

It’s a hard decision because as much as we would wish it otherwise, there are prices to be paid if people know you are an addict in recovery. For some people, that’s simply the lens through which they see you. But I hope that people who have biases about who addicts are would be forced to reconcile them against who they knew me to be.

The place where I did hesitate to break my anonymity was on the group. Having 360,000 people around the world know who I am feels odd, but on the 25th anniversary of my sobriety I announced my real name to the group. Everyone has been so kind, and it just feels like a large (giant?) family now.

LIZ: For someone reading this who might be questioning their relationship with marijuana, what would you want them to know?

DAVE: I would want them to know that everything that feels impossible, improbable, or even just impractical about making a change in your life can be solved. Our brains are amazing at creating a constant chain of “but if I…then X will happen” and “but what about X?…if I quit, then…” and those can feel impenetrable.

Find a community, whether it’s Leaves, AA, MA, NA, SMART Recovery, anything that will bring you into contact with people who share your goal, and then just make the decision that you won’t use today. No big decisions, no year-long goals, no dramatic gestures, just make it through to bedtime and see how it goes. Then, the next day, try it again.

Look at the consequences of smoking in your life, look at your loved ones, look at where you are compared to where you want to be, look at who you are compared to who you want to be, and then give yourself some distance away from the cannabis, and give your body and mind some time away from the smoking so that they can participate in the discussion.

***

LIZ: Is there anything else you’d like to share about your experience?

DAVE: The thing I usually say to people is that I am absolutely not interested in convincing anyone to quit smoking who doesn’t want to, and I’m definitely not trying to hand anyone a prosperity gospel.

But if you are someone where I was, someone who who was having parts of my life slowly drained away by cannabis until it reached a level that I knew was wrong for me, then the optimism and contentment that I and so many of our members feel now isn’t even something you are able to imagine.

Reach out, take small steps, share who you are with people who understand, and you will find that imagination again.

***

LIZ: Wow, thank you Dave that was very enlightening.

DAVE: Thank you, Liz!

***

Sarah and Dave's stories show that the path to wellness isn't always straight or simple. While Sarah has found a sustainable balance that works for her health and lifestyle, Dave's experience illuminates the very real risks of cannabis dependency and the importance of having support systems for those who want to quit. What matters most is being honest with ourselves about our choices and their impact on our lives.

If you have a recovery story you’d like to share with the readers of “Elizabeth’s Substack,” please send me a note at lizjannuzzi@gmail.com.